Atismund Holy Paladin X-Realm

[Atismund]

The Application

Character name: Atismund
Race and Class: Human Paladin
Current server: Silvermoon EU

Als: I have a few but mostly for self suficiency like professions and as »banks«.

Personal Information

My name is Žiga, I am a 18 years old male from Ljubljana, Slovenia. I am curently in the last year of highschool and next year I am planing to go to Faculty of Computer and Information science. In my spare time, besides playing WoW ofcourse, I like to play some basketball or go to the gym and going out to clubs at the weekend if money alows it.
Overall I am a nice person that treats everybody with respect and I am quite hard to piss off. People can easely rely on me and I am always open for a chat if someone needs it. I am very competitive aswell so I wanna be the best in everything I do and if I am not ill try my best to be the best.

Computer and Internet specifications

Processor Intel Core I7 920, 2.66GHz
6144mb DDR3 Mushkin Memory
Nvidia 6600GT – geting Gigabyte GeForce GTX 295, 1792MB shiped soon (curenty unsuplyable)
2x Seagate Baracuda 7200rpm SataII Hard Disks, Performace RAID configuration
Steelseries World of Warcraft MMO Gaming Mouse
Standard keyboard
Zalman ZM-RS6F Headphones with Zalman ZM-MIC
Samsung 19" Monitor
Cable Internet (4mbps)
Conection is very stable, disconects are almoast non existant.

Armory

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... n=Atismund

Talent Explanation

As you can see I am using two Holy specs for raiding one of them beeing 51/5/15 and the second one 53/17/0.
I am mosty using 51/5/15 specc for fights that require raw output and its also more mana friendly then my secons specc becouse of the extra crit and reduced mana cost on instants from retribution tree. It is abit diferent from the 51/0/20 specc most paladins pick for Holy/Retri build, but in my opinion is better becouse 5% increase in overall healing is much greater then what you get from a 3% increased crit even if you count the aditional healing you could do from mana gained of those 3 more crits, it roughly translates into 1 more Holy Light cast per 100 casted and thats abit over 2 minutes in cast time while spaming. Also the los of 15% faster movement is nothing mayor and can easely be neglected if you are focused on the fight and move when you have to. I have also chosen to take 2/2 Improved Lay on Hands over 1/2 Improved Lay on Hands and 1/1 Aura Mastery becouse now in ToC/ToGC/ICC on every fight that requires Aura Mastery my second specc is more apropriate to use so aditional 10% physical dmg mitigation from Lay on Hands in critical moments seems as a better way of going.

My 53/17/0 specc is used on fights that spam the raid with dmg and require extensive usage of cooldowns and its more of a suport specc. It again differs from a more comonly used 51/20/0 specc but in my opinion 3/3 Improved Devotion Aura is not required becouse it suplys the same buff that druids are suplying anyway without »sacrificing« any talent points, also the talent is abit bugged and the actual range of the buff is only 25 yards instead of 40 as it should be (havent tested it yet in 3.3 but haven't ready anything about them fixing it in blues). Personaly I just find having 2/2 Improved Lay on Hands and 2/2 Blessed Hands for aditional 10% dmg transfer from Hand of Sacrifice more usefull at the moment purely becouse of the Champion fight in ToGC and for fights when some more dmg mitigation on the tank is needed becouse some nasty spike is incoming.

Doing minute changes to my speccs all the time is comon for me. I try to balance them idealy for the fights that I am curently facing. Also respecing only for specific fight is not a probem at all.

My Major Glyphs are the same in both speccs.

Glyph of Holy Light: The aditional Holy Light jumps acuired from this can result in allot of healing on allot of fights if you try to use its full potential. Beaconing the tank and Holy Light spaming melee or tightly compacted groups is just one of them.

Glyph of Beacon of Light: The aditional 30 second duration you get from this makes you save some mana but most importantly it gieves you more spam time when needed so you don't break your chain casing to refresh it and to wait for the global cooldoown before you can continue.

Glyph of Seal of Wisdom: The 5% mana reduction from this is just amazing, not only that it decreases mana cost but it also makes your Illumination talent worth more becouse the mana refund is based from the initial cost and not from the reduced cost.

My Minor Glyphs are also the same in boath speccs.

Glyph of Bleesing of Wisdom: Quite usefull when buffing paladins with Blessing of Might and then just single Blessing of Wisdom on me.

Glyph of Lay on Hands: The 5 minute cooldown reduction is quite usefull and translates in potentialy more live saves in the same amount of time.

Glyph of the Wise: There is nothing better to put as a third Minor Glyph.

Playing Hours and Attendance

On a school week I usualy get online at around 18:00 depending of how much school work I have and it ends roughly at the raid end or later also depending on what stuff do I have to do online. On weekends and holidays it is prety random depending where I am or what I am doing but usualy I am online allot and »all nighters« are nothing unusual.

For raids I always try to suply the highest attendance humanly posible and juggle my real life plans around them so they don't interfeer when posible. But if that can't be avoided I will notify you as soon as I will know about it so hopfuly atleast a week in advance.

I also like to attend 10 man raids on offdays as much as posible.

Gear, Stats and Consumables

In WotLK the most important stat for paladins is Intelect so as you probably noticed I am stacking it as much as posible. Its realy usefull in allot of aspects. First of all it gives spellpower and increased crit chance in combination with some talents we can find in Holy tree like Holy Guidence. Secondly a big procentage of our mana regen is based on the total mana pool like Divine Plea, Replenish, Mana Tide Totem and Seal of Wisdom procs. So in the end it comes to this: more intelect you have bigger your heals, crit, mana regen so you can use Divine Plea less frequently and spam Holy Light more and for longer periods of time.

From »green stats« of gear I am trying to balance mp/5, crit and haste. My plan at the moment is to keep my haste as close to or more then 20.6% unbuffed so in raid I will atleast reach the soft cap of 50% for 1 second globalcooldown. It also brings the cast time of Holy Light to abit over 1.3 seconds resulting in very high single target HPS. Juggeling mp/5 and crit allot becouse sometimes a certain value of crit combined with some other upgrades is greater that an equivalent item with mp/5 becouse 1% crit on full spam translates into 14.5 mp/5 by itself not counting minute increase in healing output, more haste you have bigger the bonus of mp/5 but it scales rly slowly. Spellpower comes as a natural choice and is present on all items anyway, but its not required in abundance and less important then haste, crit and mp/5 becouse of the nature of paladin healing.

Sockets

In all sockets spots but one I am using Brilliant King's Amber (+20 intelect)/ Briliant Dragon's Eye (+32 intelect) for maximum intelect gain for the reasons I stated above, one remaining socket is Nightmare Tear (+10 all stats) for meta socket activation. For meta socket I use Insightful Earthsiedge Diamond (+21 intelent and chance to restore mana on spellcast).

Enchants

I base my enchants on mana regen if they don't suply any other usefull bonuses. Thats why I have spellpower and mp/5 heand and shoulder enchants instead of spellpower and crit ones that most paladins use (you get more mana regen out of it by far), also I have 30 intelect on wepon instead of 63 spellpower, becouse its better for Holy Light spam. Rest is standard paladin enchants.

Professions

I have Blacksmithing for 2 aditional sockets and Jewelcrafting for 3 improved intelect gems all of this again maximising my overall intelect.

Consumables

I am using Flask of Pure Mojo (45 mp/5) for adden mana regen. Using mainly Spicy Fried Herring (20 mp/5) for my food buff becouse it gives the greatest effect for a paladin.

User Interface

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9504/w ... 210513.jpg from Beasts HM 25man
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/8359 ... 214320.jpg from Anub HM 10man

As you can see I have prety much centralised my UI around Grid which is the most important addon for a healer. Have all usefull stuff showing up on it like debuffs that I can clense, debuffs from bosses that are nice to know are there, health deficit, incoming heals, treat etc. On top I have ForteExorcist that I use for monitoring my cooldowns and internal cooldowns on items and trinkets. Left of the grid is my spellreminder, I have two colums so its easier to monitor, the right one is for stuff I need to keep up on specific targets like Sacred Shield, Beacon of Light, Judgements etc. and the left one is for stuff that I need to keep on myself and some abilities with a longer cooldown like proc durations, Hand of Freedom/Protection/Salvation, Divine Protection etc. On the right side of grid I have ora2 MT target list and to the far right range checker. For my unit frames I use bar of myself, my target, my targets target, my targets targets target and a focus target and a bar with focus tragets target. I also use my castbar and castbars of my target and focus target so I can easely keep track of some nast abilities or if I need to precast something. For raid warnings I use DBM and ofcorse a scroling combat text is the last mandatory addon that I use for maximising my performance in raids.

I use allot of other addons but the rest is not rly important for performance and are there for cosmetic reasons only.

Keybindings

Even tho I have them hidden on my action bar so it looks nicer I have every usefull ability keybinded for faster and easier acces when needed. Thats allot of keybinding so I won't bother listing them becouse you already have allot to read but if its needed just contact me and ill happily list them.

Macros

Mainly I use tree macros, one is for targets target healing and ability usage.
I use this one on every fight that I can and it is very usefull for when the tanks are swaping allot becouse it makes swaping to the right target childs play and counters a posible taunt resist quite nicely aswell. It is also very usefull on fights that I can stand in melee range of the boss and melee him in between heals when I can aford to make a minute break for more Seal of Wisdom procs to get some more mana regen. Example:

#showtooltip Holy Light
/cast [modifier:alt,target=player] Holy Light
/cast [help,target=target] Holy Light
/cast [help,nodead,nomodifier:alt,target=targettarget,help,nodead] Holy Light
/cast Holy Light

Second one is mouseover macro that I use for dispelling and on some fast reaction CDs, making it much faster and doesn't need anoying target swaping and losing precious time for nothing. Example:

/stopcasting
/cast [target=mouseover,nomod,exists] Cleanse; [target=mouseover,exists,mod:ctrl] Cleanse; [target=mouseover,exists,mod:shift] Cleanse

The last one is for Judging my targets target if my target is Friendly so I don't accidently brake crowd control when keeping my haste buff up and in combination with my target of traget healin macro I don't lose any healing time on this. Example:

#showtooltip Judgement of Light
/cast [harm] Judgement of Light [target=targettarget,harm] Judgement of Light
/cast Judgement of Light

Role and WoL

Here are some World of Logs links to the raids that ware loged when I was in, they go from oldest to the most recent ones. Some are abit old but they hopfuly didn't expire after I linked them.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/cr2y ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/cxos ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wsxo ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rez2 ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j1hk ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g45e ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4dca ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xuxw ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/igcf ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/haeg ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/illb ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/96jm ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zwlm ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/amvt ... alingDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z17j ... alingDone/

My role of being a holy paladin is quite simple becouse the class is designed to be the strongest single traget healer so my job is almoast always keeping the tanks alive. But the ways of doing it are quite different and differ from fight to fight. On some fights Beaconing the tank is ideal and then spaming melee or ranged for maximum healing output, then again I need to heal two tanks at the same time or playing a big suport role in high AoE moments or where allot of dispelling is needed. So the play style changes allot and in my opinion its quite nice becouse you are not doing the same exact thing all the time like we ware in TBC (go go FoL spam!). Its true that now its Holy Light spam prety much but atleast we need to keep some buff up like Sacred Shield, Judgements, Beacon etc. and trying to use your cooldowns in the best and most effective way possible by timing and combining them for specific situations, like runing Divine Plea with Awenging Wrath/trinket/Divine Illumination (2set t10) so the percentage of healing lost gets reduced to sometimes affordable values even when high spam is required.

My WoW History

My WoW career started on the 7th of March 2006. I picked out Tauren warrior at first glimps becouse it looked the most badass. In the leveling proces I slowly started to get an idea what this game is rly about. I have allot of »I was such a nab back then« moments to remember. I dinged 60 in the start of my summer holidays, I was very exited and tryed to start some PvE, I didn't like it at first becouse my first guild was prety much a bounch of nabs (me included) and we couldn't kill the first boss in ZG. So I tried some PvP becouse I didn't like PvE that much anymore. I was quite sucesseful got to rank 11 actualy for the »free« epic mount. Soon TBC came after that and becouse I knew allot more about the game itself I decided ill start to PvE again becouse I was bored of PvP. My starts ware quite fortunate and I found myself in a rly good guild by shear luck. We ware progressing quite fast and I was learning tons of new stuff, but when we came to Karathress in SSC we disbanded becouse most of the guild was bored of the game. Unfortunatly I wasn't able to find a guild back then as a tank so I decided ill ninja my dad's paladin and start raiding with him. I loved healing straight away and I joined second best guid on the server there. I went from a replacement healer for Karazhan group 2 to a co leader in abouth a month. We progressed quite nicely at first but in SSC and TK we encountered problems and becouse the server was rly crap we rly didn't have any players to recrout. We decided to transfer to Silvermoon, it was okish at start but then we hit a brick wall called Lady Vashy and Kael'Thas and becouse the competition of other guild we again didn't get any good recrouts and disbanded around 3 months after the transfer. Then I decided I will apply to Phoenix, witch was a potent 3 days a week raiding guild. Progresed with them trough BT and MH and those ware some of the best moments in my WoW career so far. Soon after SWP came. In my opinion still the best instance ever made, even the trash was hard. We killed Brutalus pre nerf and that is my favorite healing fight so far aswell, it was just crazy to put it simply. After 3.0 hit the servers we managed to clear the place two weeks before the expansion hit. Killing KJ was my best moment in WoW and hes also my top overall fight. Then WotLK hit and me and my dad leveled my paladin together, he played when I was in school and I played when I was at home. I dinged 80 in the first week with around 10 others from the guild and we went in to naxx 10. The stepdown in dificulty was enormous compared to SWP. We decided we will start raiding 25 mans officialy after the new year. That was quite a blow to me becouse I had nothing to do and I was hungry for progress, luckely we ran 10 mans regulary and ware doing achievements for 10 man drake. We managed to get them at the end but we failed on the 25 man one and that was prety much when I started to feel abit unhappy about the guild. When Ulduar came the guild decided that they will give me the legendary mace and I was realy honored, it was nice to know that my effort is beeing appresiated. In Ulduar we progressed slowly and after some drama in the guild, at the time that we reached Yogg, that led to even more frustration, progress delays and some of the key people leaving and quiting the game. That was also when I was chosen to become an officer to replace the ones we lost. We managed to kill Yogg after a month beeing on him. In the proces we again lost some good people. We tried some hard modes but without much sucess, but after months of not geting anything new killed we finaly managed to get FL4, Hearthbreaker, Council and Hodir hardmodes done. At the time ToC was out already and the new gear helped us abit, that was also the time when I finaly managed to get the damn mace crafted after 3 weeks of wiping on Yogg +3 without much sucess but then on our last try the planets aligned and we killed him. Hardmode progress in ToGC was slow but we managed to get some good new members and with the help from ToC 25 gear finaly managed to get beasts down after spending around 140 tires on them becouse our DPS was to low. After that we progressed to 4/5 inside two weeks and that was a realy nice morale boost. Even tho things started to turn for the worse, we started losing good people again to guilds that could suply more then we could. Now with some ICC 25 gear we managed to get Anub to 5% on some tries but still same mistakes happen all over again and its nothing unusual if we wipe in phase 2 becouse people that don't know how to kite properly. But one night everything went as planed and we managed to kill him with 43 trys left. Was the first boss I was actualy happy to kill in WotLK. Now we are rying to clear 25man ICC with mixed sucess and that brings me to today.

Previous Guilds

On my Tauren Warrior called Noty :
Eternal Justice that soon merged into Elements. On Kazzak EU

On my Human Paladin called Atismund:
Andraste Cadifors that later merged into Divine. On Scarshield Legion EU
Divine but after transfer renamed to Cadifors. On Silvermoon EU
Phoenix. On Silvermoon EU

As you can see I am quite loyal to my guilds no matter how grim stuff looks at times. I won't just go emo and leave when »shitstorm« happens.

Bosses Killed

Cleared all lvl 60 content but as lvl 70.

Cleared all lvl 70 content but did last 4 bosses in SWP after patch 3.0

At lvl 80 cleared naxx on 10 and 25 man got 10 man drake, missed 25 man one becouse we didn't get Immortality. Cleared OS +3 boath on 10 and 25 man. Malygos killed on 10 and 25 man. In ulduar cleared everything in 10 and 25 man on normal, have all HMs done in 10 man so I have the 10 man drake, on 25 man HM only killed FL4, XT, Cauncil, Hodir and did Yogg +3. Cleared 10 and 25 man ToC. Cleared 10 man ToGC with Tribute to Insanity achievement. On 25 man killed everything on HM with Tribute to Skill achievement. In Icecrown Citadel killed everything available but Queen (8/12) on 25man with some achievements done. On 10man haven't cleared the crimson wing yet becouse we couldn't get a grp going this week.

I am avare that my HM experiance is not perfect and I am lacking some harded HM kills in Ulduar, but atleast I have everything done in 10 man so I have an idea how fights are fought and what to do in those special sitoations so I will be able to use this knowladge in future fights when the mehanics of the fight will be similar.

Curent Guild and reasons for leaving

Curently I am in a guild called Phoenix, where I have been a healing coordinator and officer for the past 6 months. Its a nice casual guild with okish progress but since WotLK prety much I am thinking that I have overgrown the guild and want more. Achieving hardest stuff has always ment allot to me but I can not get my desires satisfied in this guild anymore. I gave it about a years time to change tried to push it in the right way especialy now as an officer but my tries have always feel on unfertile grounds becouse it is in a way against the general thinking of the guild. They are prety much all agains sacrificing some minor stuff for the sake of progress like replacing or atleast punishing people that underperform. Beeing behind on DPS agains the same class and equaly geared guildie by 30% or failing on the same thing over and over again is just wrong in my opinion. Things like that make you wonder why would you gieve your best 100% of the time no matter what when someone just doesn't gieve a damn. Also the 10 man dedication is one of the probems, people will come to 10 man runs when its still fresh and new but when we try for hard stuff around 10 of us remain and we are lucky to get going at all and if we do its usualy unbalanced as hell and when we finaly manage to get trough people that you helped won't help you in return even tho you ware destroying your life for them for two weeks every offday and spending around 500 gold per night. I am the kind of person that can offer allot but likes to see the same in return. Theoryscrafting in the guild is almoast non existant so I don't have anyone to compare my toughts with and to have a second opinion on it becouse its possible that I have overlooked something that can have a significant impact on the thing of discusion.

Why would I like to join

I am serching for a guild that I can call home for the rest of my wow career and your guild fits my expectations and requirements perfectly.

I wanna be in a stable raiding enviroment where slacking is not suported and that I can count on other 24 people in the raid with me that they will give their best to get that damn boss down as fast as posible, even tho we might have wiped on him for two hundred plus times they will all still be focused and motivated becouse we all know more we wipe on a boss the better the kill tastes.

I also wanna be with people that will perform well so I will have a challange compeeting with them becouse challange makes you improve your game as much as posible, keeps you focused and on top of your game all the time, to do theorycrafting so you will be able to squize that one more percent out of you and then in the end to share what you figured out or learned with others.

Last but not least I would like to evolve further as a player, learn from your players and maybe teach them something myself. If alowed to join it will certanly be a nice new experience for me.

Why should you recrout me

I am a player that is highly dedicated, motivated, competitive, loyal to the guild and will always try to deliver in the best way possible. I learn fast and have allot of new ideas that might increase our chances of sucess while progressing, never get offended when I recieve criticism and I will surely try stuff out if it will be sugested to me in order to improve something. Also I don't have a problem with admiting mistakes that I did and making sure that they won't happen again.

I realy enjoy theorycrafting with fellow paladins to see if a certain thing might work out better then the ones that we are using now. Quite helpfull in general especialy if someone gets in a situation that he doesn't see a fast way out, I will try to help him overcome it and if posible share what I do in a situation like that so we can progress faster.

I have atleast a basic knowladge on how every class works, its more detailed on the healer part and that is realy helpfull if you try to maximise your healing output. In certain situations while raid healing its especialy nice to know how shamans, priests and druids way of healing is so you don't do or couse unnecesary overhealing just becouse the priest was there faster with his group heals that is by defoult more effective and efficent then mine.

Vauching

I am afraid that I don't have any from your guild but I have some from other servers in good guilds if you wanna ask them a question or two.

Gensiel – Epiphany (he plays on Twilight's Hammer EU)
Tekkel – Minions of Mithril (he plays on Silvermoon EU)
Belgoran – Minions of Mithril (he plays on Silvermoon EU)
For arena related stuff Blackthorné (he plays on Silvermoon EU)

Comunication

I am familar with using boath Ventrilo and TeamSpeak, have a mic aswell becouse I think it is one of the most important things to have while raiding so you can anounce quick changes, happenings and what not in the fastest posible way and with greatest potential that everyone will register it and posibly preventing a wipe. Typing in chat while fighting is a no go. And even overall its much easier to chit chat on Ventrilo then to type like crazy.

So as you might have gathered already I am not afraid to speak and joke around on Ventrilo but I know when its the time to be quiet.

Aditional information

There is one thing that is abit unusual with me, but becouse I still leave at home and my father is paying for all WoW related stuff and is abit of a gaming enthousiast himself I share my account with him to some extend. He is usualy doing dailies for me, grinding stuff like mats, reputations, grindy achievements, honor and ocasionaly does some 5 mans aswell so I can catch up on some studies and to stay fresh for progress raids and not frustrated after fishing for tree hours straight for that damn turtle mount that never drops. But he will never play in Raids instead of me, it will always be me playing them and you will be sure of it becouse I will be talking on Ventrilo. So far it never rised any problems and has always shown as a gain and not as a liability.

I am also an achievement »whore« so I am always up for doing some hard and unique achievements. If alowed to join it will be nice to compete with some of you for the top spots in the guild and server.

I have abit of PvP experiance aswell, did arena at around 2400 MMR for about tree weeks, was quite rushed actualy I was called in to replace Iustus with 0 arena xp beforehand, but it disbanded unfortunatley becouse you transfered (one of my arena mates was Sek from your guild) and its almoast imposible to find realy good PvPers on Silvermoon so we didn't continue with it. But I have gained allot of avareness for the things that are happening around me and that defenetly helps in PvE allot. So if ill be joining I am up for arena action aswell so I can further improve my senses and I like it aswell actualy its a new way of challenge.

Contact informations

If you want me to add any other stuff or to explain in more detail some information from this application you can poke me on my character Atismund via a wisper or ingame mail or send me a mail to ziga.hajsen@gmail.com or add me on MSN ziga.300@hotmail.com. We can also arange a Ventrilo interviev.

You have reached the end and I would like to thank you for reading it fully. Hopfuly well be raiding together soon.

Best regards Atismund

[Kuriisu]

Best application i have seen in a long time, Sretno buraz .

[Riv]

You definitely seem to know what you're doing as well as being an experienced holy paladin. Personally not a big fan of ret subspec, you just simply don't need it and the tools from prot trump it outright. Your UI needs a little cleaning up, and your next investment should be a better monitor!

[Bryler]

Great app. Very Thorough. But...

Your choice of main spec and reasons for using that spec show that you still have alot to learn.
There is no excuse for ever being 51/5/15. And not taking Aura Mastery was a very poor decision.
You say that you think that your spec is more mana efficiant than 51/20 but this isn't true at all. The longetivity on sacred shield results in more mana than the crit gained from the ret tree.
You also say that your spec alows more raw output than 51/20 which would also be wrong. Crit isn't a throughput stat and the extra 20% absorption on Sacred Shield allows more sustained "output" and makes us much more effiecent at healing tanks.
In fact the best talent we can gain from specing into the ret tree is "pursuit of justice" which is the only talent you skipped.

But the main reason to spec 51/20 is ofc for "Divine Sacrifce" and "Divine Guardian". Having your raid take 20% less dmg for 6sec every 2 min is alot better than anything you can get from the ret tree. And when you put Holy Paladins in the tanks group, "Divine Sacrifice" gives them an extra shield wall on a 2min cd.

Given our current Holy Paladin situation I wouldn't say that taking on a 4th trial would be a good idea unless they had nothing left to learn.

[Atismund]

Well to give some replys back

First at Riv:

Indeed on my list of need to upgrade asap is the monitor, when ill have enough money ill go for 24 or 26 widescreen and by increased monitor size ill be able to minimize allot of the stuff and that should clean up my UI abit aswell, but so far i havent been effected by it in any way that would reduce my playing capabilities, so far i could spot everything that was going on around me perfectly.

Secondly at Bryler:

First of all the mana efficiency from 51/5/15 compared to 51/20. This is the math i did to come to my conclusion. First of all i neglected all movement factors here becouse if you have to move it effects boath speccs in the same way on healing so the los you get from moving should be the same so doesnt effect the outcome in %.

Lets take a 6min time table saying you have everything up 100% of the time and that you use JoL and HS on CD.

Holy/Ret build mana costs compared to Holy/Prot:

BoL 1306/1460 mana
HS 671/750 mana
SS 474/527 mana
JoL 197/219 mana

To keep everything up 100% of the time you need to cast it this amount of times:

Holy/Ret agains Holy/Prot and mana costs for that:
BoL 4/4 - 5224/5840
HS 36/36 - 24156/27000
SS 12/6 - 5688/3162
JoL 36/36 - 7092/7884

Overall cots Holy/Ret agains Holy/Prot is:

42160/43886 1726 mana diference aka 3.9% more mana effective, the difference would rise aswell if you would be using any other CDs that cost mana and are instant but thats so little that i didnt bother including it.

Also if you just spam HL for 6min straight with 1.300 cast time (what i have atm) you will be able to cast 277 HLs and if 5 more percent of them crits it means you will get aditional 5824 mana compared to Holy/Prot. So if we add that up with the above mana saved from lesser cost we get in Holy/Ret build on 100% spam you would be left with up to 7550 more mana in 6min translating as up to 17.2% more mana friendly then Holy/Prot. So the range would be 3.9-17.2% more mana effective depending on the amount of movement you need to do. I know if we compare this to the actual cost of the HLs casted this amount is neglectable but the spending of mana on any other spells shows the difference and would actualy alow you to get 6.8 HLs out more before you would run oom and the actual time difference of 15 seconds becouse we have to take in acount that you can casts 4.5 more HLs with Holy/Prot in 6 mins that Holy/Ret can becouse you save 6 GCDs becouse you are not refreshing SS that offten. This is taking into consideration no matter what specc youd play in that fight you would have exactly the same outside mana regen etc.

Aditional note: If you wouldnt use HS at all the mana efficiency is indeed greater for Holy/Prot for about 2844 mana but the aditional 5% crit in Holy/Ret build would atleast equalize that or be abit ahead.

Secondly for the raw output part. Looked at some WoLs and i couldnt find any that you did more then 9.4% of your total healing by SS, most of them warry from 3-5%. So lets say that without Holy/Prot build SS would do 7.5% max or mostly 2.4-4% of my total output on that specific fight again refering to that its exactly the same fight just your specc is diferent. You would lose 0.6-1.9% of your healing output compared to Holy/Prot with Holy/Ret. But the effect of crits would increase your healing by 2.5%. Overheal shouldnt effect that at all becouse crits or normals can get full or no overheal every time so % should be the same.

And asuming that you will run oom at some point in the fight you should be geting 1.1 HLs more casted for every minute of the fight that you were acumulating the aditional mana so it increases your healing output by 0.7% in the long run incase you run oom. Runing oom nowdays is almoast imposible tho with all the CDs but lets say you wanna go for max raw output and it should come ontop of Holy/Prot build.

Note: When i refered to raw output i ment the healing you can do by spaming your pants off without using any CDs.

Lastly about the 51/20 build or 54/17 in my case. I am fully aware of its strengths thast why i speced it on the 2nd talent slot, and i am using it over my Holy/Ret build in any fight that using CDs will benefit you more that the actual raw output build aka hardmodes or any fight that requires usage of CDs for easier take down, i mostly use Holy/Ret specc for normals and when i try and brake my previous EHPS record on some fight (the fight is on total farm status already and a fight that i can afford going without certain CDs, don't wanna screw up a possible takedown just for my personal satisfaction) becouse this is quite fun for me and actualy only challange that i get nowdays becouse as you can see from WoLs the 2nd Hpala (or any healer for that matter) doesnt rly challange me of meters so hopfuly you understand my boredom.

So when i introduced you to my speccs i didnt wanna specify any as my main specc becouse i use both depending on the situation. But looking at it from overall perspective i do agree that Holy/Prot is better then Holy/Ret.

Hopfuly this is enough to clarify my PoVs that arised some uncertanty about certain things about me. If you think i missed something of importance when i did my assumptions id be glad to hear your toughts about that matter and posible counters you have.

PS: I rly love discusions like this Its something i rly miss in my curent guild.

[Bryler]

Using a stat comparrison where you use Judgement and Holy Shock on cooldown isn't a good idea. No Holy Paladin would ever use those 2 abilites on cd, especially not Holy Shock.

You say you are aware that 51/20 is the superior spec but you've chosen the ret tree anyway to boost your self on meters.
I'll agree that the ret spec is better for boosting yourself on healing meters, but you put your raid at a HUGE disadvantage by doing this. And a healers job isn't to top healing meters, it's to keep ppl alive.
And I don't understand your decision to "ease your boredom" by being higher on meters.
Your guild still has ALOT of progress left to do, including "Insanity" + "Mad skill" so it seems to me that easing your bordeom by putting your raid at a disadvantage isn't something you should be doing

[Atismund]

Well firtsly about HS on CD usage for the stat comparison. I used both extrems one with rly extensive HS usage and one with none to show the max possible effect or the least effect of 10% mana cost reduction compared to none that you get in ret. Indeed using HS on CD is stupid becouse it actualy means HPS decrease.

Also id disagree on not using JoL quite offten, becouse if you wanna ensure a highest possible uptime of JoL you have to Judge on CD to counter possible misses and by that losing uptime. Also since 3.2 JoL counts as melee attack and is tho eligable for procing your SoW and by that increasing your mana regen.

I guess i didnt point it out enough on what fights i use Holy/Ret when i wanna boost my healing done for "easing my boredom". As i said in my first reply i use Holy/Ret on Normal modes Only and Only on ones that i can afford not to go without CDs from Holy/Prot. I also stated that i never go for records on fight that me doing so could posibly resuli in us wiping. So i dont see a problem in increasing my healing on boring and easy fights that have been on farm for ages.

Holy/Ret Example:
Twins Normal Mode, where using DS and other abilities you get from Holy/Prot is not needed at all becouse the dmg the raid takes is minimal especialy with ToGC/ICC gear.

Holy/Prot Example:
On progress raid. HMs and fights like Faction champions even on normal mode becouse allot of DMG mitigation CD helps there greatly.

So hopfuly this sorted any remaining confusion.

[Bryler]

I see.
I don't see divine sacrifice or aura mastery on your bars in the 2 screenshots you posted so I assumed you used the ret spec. I Don't see much of them in your logs either.

Using judgment on cd isn't somthing you should be doing either. If you did that on a hard mode progress boss the tank would most likely die.
And I still maintain that Holy/Prot is better than Holy/Ret no matter what the boss. Even if you find 5% crit more entertaining than divine sacrifice.

[Atismund]

Well when you use JoL the tanks stays out of healing for 1 GCD ~1sec longer then between HL spam. Same happens when you refresh SS or use any other ability prety much, so if i get the reason why you said using JoL on CD is bad is that 1 sec longer without any heals (or did i miss something) then you risk a tank death prety much whenever you are doing something else but spaming like crazy. Also if lets say you get 3-4 SoW procs a minute if you use JoL every 10-12 sec you will get 5400-7200 mana back (1800 per tick) you will be geting the equivalent of 1 DP usage of mana back every 1.5 min meaning you can avoid using DP as often when on full spam, and personaly i think that if the dmg is so high that if 1 of 2-3 healers lands his cast 1 sec later then he should from time to time would men a tank can die, then using DP would be more risky than that 1 sec break (yes you indeed can use CDs with it to soften the effect of reduced healing but if you wanna get that 50% back you will have to use 2 CDs at a time, asuming you have 3 CDs to use it with (AW, Illumination (2set t10), Triket) you will be able to cover first DP then the second one would only be runing with 1 CD and the third one with 0) leaving the tank with reduced healing for 15 seconds by up to 50%.

Even tho so high dmg on the tank is rly situational and not true for every encounter so for that specific encounter you could stop using JoL every 10-12 secs and if you know that in the next 30 secs or so the tank will be taking increased dmg you can also drop JoL-ing. Every fight is diferent and you have to adapt to it, so if i use JoL on CD on one fight it doesnt meen ill be using it on all no matter what.

For the Divine Sacrifice part. Nerfed wersion of it copared to the old one is crap tbh so i dont think its that usefull now as it used to be and its use is prety situational and can be used to a noticable effect only on rly limited bosses. Maybe i think like that becouse usualy my guilds isnt done with normals yet when you already completed all HMs so our gear is significantly better then what you had at that time when we start HMs.

Well indeed nowdays i use Holy/Prot allot less, usualy only on Faction champions and Twins HM becouse elswhere i dont see Divine Sacrifice beeing of much use and i think that i can contribute more to the raid with Holy/Ret.

Example: Beasts HM,

Phase 1: little raid dmg, high dmg on the tanks – i cant see any good use for DS here

Phase 2: little raid dmg (posibly abit higher spikes on melee), high tank dmg – again DS doesnt have a great impact, maybe if youd pop it on melee when they get abit to much flames becouse they stood to close to eachother but before you could cast it if the dmg was extremly high from the begining they will die already in that 1sec.

Phase 3: little raid dmg + »channeled« dmg on ~30% of the raid from time to time + higher spike on knockback, high tank damage – again DS doesnt help allot, channeled stuff can be healed up easely by droods and priests + JoL and HS totem. Higher spike doesnt need to be mitigated becous when he charges hell get stuned anyways for 10 sec so again plenty of time to heal the whole raid up.

Only time that i might see Holy/Prot better here were the first few weeks of ToGC when tanks ware suposedly just dying from time to time, so using dmg transfering abilities like DS and HoS on Impales would be nice so the high single hit gets mitigated as much as pos. But i didnt do the fight those days + when the screenie was taked of my UI we didn't have any problems with tanks surving impales so it wasnt so game breaking anymore.

Maybe my opinion on that would change if id experiance HMs from second lock onvards and i would see that for that maybe indeed Holy/Prot is more potent. So imo even if i am wrong on my part about Divine Sacrifice and Holy/Prot usefulness on some fights it takes 10 seconds to respec and sort it out.

[Bryler]

I don't mean to talk down to you but alot of your opinions sugest that you don't have alot of experience with hard mode progression raids. And i'm talking about real progess raids e.g pre-nerf mimiron with the whole raid wearing mostly tier 7 gear. The use of external tank cooldowns is vital for progression raids and the usefulness of having everyone in the raid take 20% less dmg for 6 seconds should be fairly obvious.

@ your points on using judgement:
I'm fully aware of the mana returns that using judgement gives but my point was the gap in healing should be timed. For example you wouldn't use judgment right before an implae at gormok but rather wait untill the tanks healh was healed to full after the impale.
Ususally you will be in a raid with 3 or more paladins so you don't need to use judgement as often as possible to keep the debuff on the boss

@ your points on using Divine Sacrifce.

Example: Beasts HM,

Phase 1: little raid dmg, high dmg on the tanks – i cant see any good use for DS here

Having your tanks take 20% less damage and having 40% of their dmg being transferd is VERY useful during Impales when the boss is sub 30%. I can't see how anyone would find the points spent in the ret tree more useful than this.

Phase 2: little raid dmg (posibly abit higher spikes on melee), high tank dmg – again DS doesnt have a great impact, maybe if youd pop it on melee when they get abit to much flames becouse they stood to close to eachother but before you could cast it if the dmg was extremly high from the begining they will die already in that 1sec

Having your meele take 20% less dmg when 7+ of them take the fire debuff is very useful. They wont die within 1 sec of that happening and you can use sacrifice even before it happens if you have the boss on /focus. If you have decent priests in your raid they will use Divine Hymn at the same time which means none of them would die.
Again better than anything you get from the ret tree.

Phase 3: little raid dmg + »channeled« dmg on ~30% of the raid from time to time + higher spike on knockback, high tank damage – again DS doesnt help allot, channeled stuff can be healed up easely by droods and priests + JoL and HS totem. Higher spike doesnt need to be mitigated becous when he charges hell get stuned anyways for 10 sec so again plenty of time to heal the whole raid up.

External cooldowns on the tank during fercious butt were very helpful when this boss was 1st released. And Sacrifice is very useful if someone fails the charge and could prevent it causing a wipe before the enrage was able to be tranqed

But these are just examples from NRB HC. There is plenty of other examples from most bosses in game Including the majority of Ulduar hard modes and upcoming ICC hard modes

[Atismund]

For DS usage i was refering to nowdays aka raiding with full ToGC/ICC 25man gear on that encounter (guess it wasnt specialy refered to when i was writhing about it).

Dmg on the tanks phase 1 is not even close to what its used to be and with 2x HoP usage we have boath tanks at 0-1 max 2 on one of them if DPS is rly slow debuffs under 30% so they survive easely without any CDs (we use 2 pala healers + disc on them maybe thats why) and we havent lost a tank for ages on beasts HM, but i do agree that it was probably rly usefull on proper hardmode progression and that i stated in my last post already.

For phase 2: Well i guess precasting DS would be nice for bile but how can you know its gona hit melee and that someone will be standing wrong so debuff will jump more then it should? Guess that can be sorted if you have multiple paladins with DS and you just "play it safe" and one does it every time before it hits, but i/we dont have that option in my guild becouse even when i say to them that they should specc into it for some fights (champs, twins) nothing happens (thats what you get if the whole guild is casualy minded and you cant treten peps with gkick if they dont do it coz then you have whole guild up your ass-.-) and becouse we only have 3 paladins total in the guild and peps dont wanna accept teh fact that forming raid grps specificaly for each boss is better not to just take it by queue basis so we can be raiding with only 1 paladin at times, so if we cant counter 1 ability fully with CD (by not having enoug paladins/paladins speced right) i tend not to go for it becouse maybe well survive 1 but when 2nd one comes well wipe or lost peps coz of it.

Phase 3: Again same problem as with melee bile but on this one you can see someone if you pay attention that he didnt move correctly or fast enough so you can be fast enough with precasting it.

Well things you pointed out for the DS are walid but all exept phase 1 are based that someone will fail on something, so far i didnt base my theorycrafting on posibilities that people will fail aswell but i guess that this might be nice to change. Indeed having some "fail" catcher would be nice especialy if you go for limited tries stuff.

Well i do agree that i dont have allot, actualy any proper hard mode progression xp/never so far went for mad skills or insanit on 25 man becouse now our raiding camp doesnt suply us with rigt setup to kill him again since our last kill becouse we have 2 shamans total in the guld one of them enhancement and no Spriests so we cant get enough pasive healing for phase 3 and thats probably whats cousing the disagreement we have on Holy/Prot and Holy/Ret subject, but some stuff you said made me think in a diferent direction for the future on evaluating different speccs. And indeed most likely you get more out from added utility for "oh shit" moments than increasing your output by abit presuming you are in a perfect raid and noone will fail especialy on limited tries that seem to be quite popular with blizz nowdays and well probably see more in the future.

So now i do realise what you were trying to told me when you said Holy/Prot is better in your opinion then Holy/Ret regardless of the boss.

[Atismund]

Well after diging into Holy/Prot subject abit more i have now realised the full potential of AM and DS/DG usage. If you take boss fights into acount and you examine the dmg they do on some abilities it is quite clear that you can use both this abilities quite extensivly at almoast every if not every bossfight and by that making some abilities much easier to overcome, so i am now convinced ill be using Holy/Prot over Holy/Ret trough ICC regardless if i get accepted into Numen or not Thx for opening my eyes on this subject.

[Subtext]

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